By Susan Shipton
Photo credits to Patricia MacRae
At the Kingston Sheep Dog Trials in August of 2024, I sat on the hill and watched Tracy Hinton run Lad in their last trial. Her partner for close to ten years, Tracy had decided it was time to retire Lad from competition. Driving home I was sad I wouldn’t see him trial again, and I thought about what that last run must have meant to Tracy.
I wondered what it might have been like to live with, run, and train a dog like him, and I thought others might be interested in hearing more about Lad and Tracy too. Or maybe it was simply because I had been a student of Tracy’s and knew Lad a little, that I couldn’t just let him leave the trial field for the last time without somehow marking it.
Tracy agreed to sit down for an interview, which evolved into a wonderfully meandering discussion on the things we teach our dogs, and the things we learn from them.
Here is our conversation.
How did Lad come into your life? What level of training did he have?
Lad is out of Vergil Holland’s Brooke dog, sired by Patricia MacRae's Cap. He was born on July 30th 2013. Vergil kept two pups from that litter, Lad and his sister. Vergil was quite sick and in April 2015 he and Annemarie reached out and told me that Vergil wasn't going to be able to train his nursery dogs and thought Lad would suit me. Sadly Vergil passed and I picked up Lad at the BlueGrass May 2015.
My first impression was….crap, he's fluffy. (Laughter). I remember asking Annemarie what he knew and she wasn't sure. She said: “I know he trained him a couple of times and he was in the small field.” (Laughter) Vergil had passed not long before and it just wasn’t the time to ask a lot of questions. And it didn’t matter. I took Lad in the small field and gave him a go. I remember he wasn't keen...but that changed when he saw the sheep. From that day forward he only had eyes for me. I brought him home and decided that I had best start from scratch and assume he knew nothing, so that is what I did.
What stage were you at as a trainer/handler when you got Lad? You had Soot by then correct?
I met Vergil at his home in Kentucky. I believe that I went with Tara and Helen - the very first lesson I took with Vergil was with Soot and he helped me an awful lot. He loved Soot, he wanted to breed to her. I remember him telling me: “You won’t be an ‘also ran’ for long with this dog, you’ll be winning with this dog.” I remember him telling me that, and she was the first dog I won an Open trial with.
So that’s how I met Vergil, through Soot. And I was also training Dax, who is two years older than Laddie. Dax was just starting to run Open. So I was running Soot and Dax in Open when I got Lad. My very first dog that I did herding with was Flirt, the Kelpie, I fudged my way through arena trials and different things, trying to learn with her. And then I bought Boy, my first border collie, who I trained and I did end up running in Open, although not very successfully. He wouldn’t lie down. And he had really bad flanks. (Laughter) Boy was born deaf in one ear and I retired him around the same time I started to run Dax. So in order it was Flirt the kelpie, then Boy and then Dax. Then Soot and then Lad.
I find it interesting that when you talk about each of these dogs you talk about their training. Though there is usually some training involved, not everyone in sheep dogging considers themselves to be both a trainer and handler, right? You must have felt fairly early on that you wanted to take on the training part. You weren’t a person who said “I’m going to buy a well trained dog and work from there.”
Soot was a trained dog. Boy was a struggle because I didn’t know enough. I was starting to train Dax and I thought; if I buy a started dog this might help me. I need the book, I need the encyclopedia. And so I bought Soot. She wasn’t perfect but she was really good for me because she was a really good listener. And Soot taught me how to handle because she did everything I told her to so I very clearly recognized when it was my fault not the dog’s fault! (Laughs)
I made so many mistakes with Boy, Boy could do a ton of things, I spent so many hours training that dog; we learned together. When I was training Dax, I would take Soot out and I’d do something and I’d think - well how come I can do this with her and not him? I would go back to Dax and see; he slices his flanks there and he didn’t listen to me and he didn’t have that feel, etcetera. And so I used Soot as my sort of understanding of what I needed the dog to do because I could do anything I wanted with her. When I was wrong, she listened to me anyway, she showed me.
When I was a student of yours Lad held for us many times, maybe in part where my affection for him comes from, and I remember you saying the same thing about him; he taught you how to be a better handler.
Yes. Both did.
So Soot came just before Lad?
Yes. I got Soot when she was two and I couldn’t run her by the time she was five because she went deaf (EOD). I stopped running Soot the day Laddie started running Open. That summer was the very first time I got invited to Soldier Hollow and I learned that she was going deaf. At the end of that summer I ran her at Indian River in October. I started her on the drive and she didn’t hear me to turn and I had to run up the field to catch her because she just kept driving the sheep (Laughs). So she was done. It was a sad day.
I had just come back from running Nursery 2016 with Lad. I was devastated I had to pull Soot because, well, I was positive that I would never have another dog that would ever be as good as her. And I remember Amanda Milliken said: “Why don’t you run that Lad, your Nursery dog? He’s doing alright for you.” And I said: “Well he’s not really ready for Open” and she said: “Well he’s goin’ good. What have you got to lose?” I thought, she’s right, what have I got to lose? And so he basically stepped into Soot’s role.
Did you made mistakes with him? Are there things you would do differently?
It’s funny because someone said to me once - I was sort of down on myself, I did this wrong I did that wrong - and he said: “Well how do you know that if you hadn’t done the things you did in the order you did them, that you would maybe never have got to where you are?” Lad was hard for me to train. We stuck with it and I know that if I had to do it all over again I would perhaps do some things better, or differently, but I am very proud of the dog he became.
What exact mistakes did I make? I don’t know, tons. But, maybe the fact that I just stuck with it and I kept trying to teach him things, that is how we got there eventually…
And maybe he was a forgiving kind of dog? Because they’re not all, are they?
They’re not all. Yeah, he’s not a crazy dog. He doesn’t get spun, he’s very settled. He would just rather not do anything at all than run in and dive in and grab sheep, which made things easier to work through. He is so calm and steady in his work and I think that helped us so much in our journey. No anxiety really. He could get out of the truck after being on the road for three days and run exactly the same as when we left. It allowed me to concentrate on running and trying to make good decisions with what skills we had.
What’s he like, just as a dog?
He didn’t have a lot of personality when we got him. I think mostly because unfortunately Vergil was so sick and Annemarie had a lot to do and so he was mostly a kennel dog. He was very ‘unworldly’ when I got him. I put him on sheep and I took him off that farm and he latched onto me. For I don’t know how long, he wouldn’t even acknowledge another person. Tim (Tracy’s husband) would say his name and he wouldn’t even look at him. John Palmer will tell you when we travelled with him out to Colorado I don’t think Laddie acknowledged his existence for like two weeks!
Now’s he’s like…rock solid temperament, gets along with everybody. He’s a bit goofy…especially with the girls! He used to be a bit skittish.
When you get a new dog you haven’t raised from a pup, who has been on sheep before, some people say to make him feel at home, take him out on sheep. Others say the opposite - take some time to form a bond first.
I think when they’re trained, yes take them to sheep right away. I think putting them on sheep gives them something that they’re comfortable with it’s like: “Oh, oh this person’s got the drug too!” I think going sooner than later lets them bond quicker to you. If they don’t know what sheep are, then you need to make a bond so that they know who you are before you take them to sheep, because sheep will override you.
Do you remember your first trial with him and how it went?
When I first trialed him it would have been in Pro Novice. It didn’t go very well as I recall. He did not have a good out run and he didn’t drive well. (Laughs) But he listened. For the most part anyway.
But I remember going down to Florida and he did really well in the Nurserys. But I also remember going to the Bluegrass where I had to whistle him four times to get him up the hill on the novice field ‘cause his outrun was so poor. But he came second in his very first Open Trial. Mind you it was at Kevan’s so the place was familiar. I would think all his failings were training.
What he knew, he did exactly the same in a trialing situation as he did at home. Where he didn’t do well was where he didn’t have the skills. So I struggled with my outrun, and I guess that’s because he didn’t have enough experience going to different places. He actually became quite a good out runner, but it did take awhile for that.
What was the weakness in his outrun? How did you work through it?
He didn’t scope well. I always think what makes a dog a good out runner is that ability to leave your feet, know where the sheep are and figure out how far that is. That is one of the things that amazes me about these dogs; that ability to leave my feet and figure out where those sheep are even with trees and hills and stuff…and come up behind them in the right position. He just wasn’t very good at that. (Laughter)
If I remember what he did, he would come in too soon. He didn’t understand - if I don’t see them, keep going. He thought - if I don’t see them, I must have passed them. That was his problem. So I believe that was probably more me not setting up enough varied situations to give him the experience, because once he got that, the lightbulb came on and I had no problem with him. And you know Tye struggled with that a little bit too. And then Carter…I just think it’s an evolution they go through. It’s experience. It’s just something they have to learn.
What memories of your life and career with Lad really stand out? And similarly, were there disappointments that stand out?
I remember teaching Lad to drive. I walked with him for miles and miles and he’d drive but he would not push those sheep past me. If I stopped, he’d stop. And I remember being so frustrated and upset one day thinking; what am I doing wrong? why will this dog not drive the sheep away from me? And going: “Vergil where are you? Help me out here!” and dropping my crook in frustration and it scared Laddie and he just went zoop and kept walking and driving the sheep away and I said: “Good boy! Walk Up!” And he kept going and from that day forward he would push the sheep past me.
I can remember that day so clearly. It was at Swaledale. Sometimes things happen and you have to go with it!
But it was a breakthrough!
Yes!
Any runs stand out?
I don’t remember many runs in detail, but I can still run Laddie’s second Nursery run in my head. It was the USBCHA Nursery finals and Lad came 6th overall that year. It was a really big deal for me doing so well at the North American level. I can still remember his final run, it was Carbondale. I had a sheep that kept breaking off from the others and Lad had to keep tucking her back in. I spent so much time getting her back in to make my cross drive panel with her that I ran out of time while I was closing the pen gate. I remember the judge telling me after that I wasn't strategic. I should not have bothered to get her through the last gate and then I would have had time for the pen. I would have finished much higher. A good lesson was learned that day about strategy.
Patricia MacRae...Lad is by her Cap. He looked so much like her Cap. She was thrilled for me that day and insisted that we do a photo shoot. Nice to have that memory.
What expectations do you have of yourself now, all this time later?
I actually don’t have expectations. I know that sounds funny but I don’t have an expectation when I go to the post that I’m going to win or that I’m going to come second, or fourth or even be competent. Because I know that every time you go to the post you could suck, you could do well, or you could be anywhere in between. I just try to do my absolute best and see where that stands.
Why do you walk to the post now, because you enjoy it, right?
Yes. I enjoy it. But what I really get a kick out of is the training. I loved running Soot because I thought: “Oh my Gosh I figured out how to handle a dog.” But running every dog since Soot has been about - yes I can handle the dog, but I trained that dog to do it! It’s an incredible relationship that you get that.
When I go to the post and run my dogs, the conversation is so personal that you’re having with that dog. There’s nothing like it for me. It doesn’t even have to be running in a trial. When I’m doing a task, not just training, just having that communication and getting the dog to do what we’re asking it to do…it still gives me a thrill when I think about it.
I was really with Soot, but not as long as Laddie. Having that relationship with Laddie for …I’ve been running him in Open for eight years. I would say that for probably the last six, if I asked him to do something he did it.
It’s been quite a journey of learning with Lad. Are there things that you remember specifically? What ‘bubbles to the surface’ when you think about your career with him?
I remember at the Bluegrass when I was doing well and then timed out on the cross drive. Laddie couldn’t move the sheep fast enough. And I was beside myself. When I got home I had a lot of homework to do to teach my dog how to move sheep at the pace we wanted to move them. He wanted to move them at the pace they wanted to go at, so if they didn’t want to move he was like: “Okay we’ll wait for them to move.” There were things I had to teach that I didn’t understand myself. I didn’t think about training on different types of sheep; on sheep that didn’t want to move so my dog learned how to push those kind of sheep. I know that sounds so obvious, but it just wasn’t on my radar to teach that. I just thought it came as part of it.
So there were so many things like that with Lad because my journey was so long with him; I went from being a fairly novice Open handler to being not a novice Open handler. So a lot of the things I remember are about the things I had to learn. Things we didn’t do well where I had to go away and just figure out how to make it happen and then come back and be successful.
I describe my journey as; Rise to the level of your own incompetence and move past it! (Laughter)
A lot of it came together for me pretty much in 2022 when I went on my big trip. I did Kingston here, I made it to the double lift, then I drove out to Saskatchewan and I placed there, made it into the double lift. And then I went to the Canadians, I placed there and into the double lift, then I went to Soldier Hollow, then Meeker and then Nevada USBCHA finals. That trip, and how well he did was great.
I competed at Meeker twice with him, and I was scared to death to compete at Meeker. The very first time I won the Rising Star Award with him and got into the Semis, we were one point off getting into the double lift. And the second time I won the Stockmanship Award one day, won one of the days, got into the Semis and into the double lift. I didn’t do so great in my DL run but…rise to the level of your own incompetence, right? - that’s my story with Laddie!
The World Sheepdog Trial in 2023 must have been an incredible experience.
It was. It really was. The thing I discovered was that I could do it. I was competent enough. It was possible for me, I wasn’t out of my league. That was a really really big thing for me. I finished the course. And I know that sounds stupid but that was a really huge goal. Don’t get me wrong, there were mistakes made but I wasn’t that far off, I guess is what I’m saying.
And it’s so wonderful you got to do that with Lad.
Ya, it sure is. I had both Tye and Lad ready to go right up until the last minute just in case, ‘cause you never know. Earlier you asked about who he is as a dog. I had him there for two weeks, he hung out in the pubs and we walked around a lot, he was such a great companion on that trip. It was a lot of fun.
I wanted to mark the retirement of Lad from competition because of your great partnership, but also because it was by watching him that I began to understand what people meant when they said of a dog; “The sheep like him” or “He has a great way with sheep.”
I was told by many experienced people that I should watch a lot of trials, and not just from the post end of the field, but from the lift as well. I remember going up to the top a couple of years ago at Kingston and watching your Lad. He just kinda came onto the sheep and went: “Come on girls, we’ll go this way.” And they did.
Kind but with authority.
Yes and I could see that. And for that to be obvious to a real novice, that’s something I always remembered about him. And I don’t remember hearing your whistles! Maybe I’ve forgotten, or maybe you knew that he was going to lift those sheep and you were just going to leave him to it.
Many trainers have told me that my job was to teach my dog how to do it’s job. And it’s his job to do the lift. You need to tell him where if it’s not straight, otherwise just tell him you’re there and let him do his job. The dog has to learn - they get behind; they have to figure out where they need to be and they need to figure out how strong to come on. Not to say that you shouldn’t be able to control it, tell him: “No, stop. Those sheep are way lighter than you think they are because they’re on grain Buddy”. Or: “Hey it’s a dog leg fetch so you need to stop short and I need you to lift them there.” But, most importantly for me is that my dogs needed to know how to do that job because if they don’t, at 400 or 700 yards, you can’t tell what they need.
You know it’s funny, as good a dog as he is, when I was in a double lift and working on sorting, I recognized what I didn’t teach him. Again, I go to that: “rise to the level of your own incompetence…” I got into more double lifts in 2022 than I think I had in my whole career and I quickly realized that I didn’t have the skills, myself and my dog, to do sorting. The nuances of opening and closing that door, sorting out the collared sheep versus just a shed, which I could do well…it was just different. And I just hadn’t practiced that because I worked so hard to get into the double lift!
I recently did a collared sort at Handy Dog with Tye and I’d rather have Tye doing a sort, a collared twenty sheep sort, than Laddie. So it’s an evolution.
I promise I will not tell Laddie that!
Don’t tell Laddie that!
Lad has had an exceptionally long career, how did you make the decision to retire him?
I made the decision that at the end of this trial season for sure I wasn’t going to run him anymore. Because he’s eleven, and you know, enough is enough. I didn’t say he was never going to work sheep again. I do use him to put sheep out and moving at home because he very much wants to do it still.
I made the decision not to take him out west (to the Canadian Nationals) even though I knew he would have been fantastic on those sheep. I wasn’t sure about the weather, and I knew the course was going to be very large. But I did say I was going to run him at Kingston and then I was going to make the decision whether or not I was going to run him in the fall.
He did well the first round at Kingston, on the second he was doing quite well but I struggled at the pen because he did not have the ability to move the way he needed to move to work those sheep. So I was compensating a little bit. I thought I had a pretty good score, but I was worried. I’m trying to pen sheep and I’m thinking about the fact that the double lift course might be too much for him. I don’t want him to hurt himself and I just thought - That’s it, he’s done. I’m not running him anymore.
I always knew that I wasn’t going to run him with him knowing that he can’t do what needs to be done. Maybe I’m humanizing the dog, but I’m not going to ask him to do something he can’t do as well as he used to. I believe they know. You can’t run a dog with that much heart for that many years; who tried to do everything he could to get you the sheep, to do what you ask him to do and then say: “I want you to still do it, I know you’re sore but, you know, put your life on the line for me.” No.
People asked why I didn’t just run him for the season….but I didn’t want to run him in the next five trials and maybe just get a score. That’s not the dog I want to remember.
How did it feel for you to retire him?
Oh it was terrible. Because it had been on my mind. When I went to Florida in February this year I thought; oh he’ll never be able to be competitive still. He had done really well at the Worlds and the Ontario fall trials but that was September, and five months is a lot for a dog when they’re ten. Well then we went and he did awesome…so he was still going good then.
Then another 3 months and the Bluegrass and I thought this is the last Bluegrass. But it was hot and it’s big and I have to invest in my future which is Tye. I have to run Tye. And that was so hard. I remember my friend Michelle saying to me: “That new pair of gloves is never going to feel good unless you take them out of the drawer.” And she was right. I needed to invest in Tye.
But I have to admit it was extremely hard to go and run Tye and leave Lad in the camper.
It’s been a great partnership.
Ya, I even did a couple of T.V. shows with him too with Kevan. We did a Holly Hobby Show. I also did the History Channel History Erased about herding breeds. I had all three of my dogs in the back of the car and the producer came around and just said: “That one.”
Because he was the handsomest!
Yes, of course!
Is there anything about him that really stands out to you? Something unique to him among your dogs?
There is one thing that is, I believe, really good about Laddie, that I don’t have in Tye at the moment. He could go on any type of sheep and do well. I could go on flighty hair sheep and then I could go and run in Meeker. He could handle it. Sheep liked him.
I remember someone doing a post a long time ago saying that there are not a lot of dogs that can go from the east to the west and still do well. And they said: “Tracy Hinton’s Lad is one of them.” And I think that is something that is pretty special about him. That came from experience, and it came from him just being who he is. Probably being more upright; having that good feel. That is something I hope that I can have in my future dogs.
I’d like to thank Tracy for taking the time to answer my questions so thoughtfully. And I’d like to thank she and Lad for the setting out at our lessons, as well as at trials all over North America for the last many years. And thank you Lad and Tracy for being a great team to watch and cheer on! You’ve represented our community well for close to a decade.
Good boy Lad, enjoy your retirement. You’ve earned it.
